This is one of the biggest problems to me in the Quran. The Quran paints a picture of the world that seems incorrect. It describes the world in such a way that a 7th century person in Arabia would have described it. It does not describe the world according to the way the Creator of the Universe would have known it.
Or if we go by what makes more sense, maybe it wasn’t written by God. Maybe it was actually written by a man in the 7th century?
If you look at the verses that mention the sun’s orbit (falak, which means rounded or curved course) it is almost always in the context of night and day. It looks much more likely that the meaning is that the sun takes its path every day rather than that it is talking about its orbit around the galaxy once every 225 million years, which has no relevance to human timescales.
If you look at these verses it seems that the sun’s path can be seen by the bedouins listening to Muhammad
Do you not see that Allah causes the night to enter the day and causes the day to enter the night and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term, and that Allah, with whatever you do, is Acquainted? (Quran 31:29)
and is a token (ayat – sign) that the listeners should be able to understand:
A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness and the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit. (Quran 36:37-40)
Again it is mentioned in the context of the night day cycle. Or look at this verse:
And the moon darkens And the sun and the moon are joined (Quran 75:8-9)
This would require the moon to fly 98 million miles into the sun, which is 600 times the diameter of the moon. It would be a very strange apocalyptic plan, but is much more plausible as something a 7th century person would imagine, as it looks to them as if the sun and moon are about the same size and distance from the earth. Related to this are verses that say:
By the sun and his brightness, And the moon when she followeth him (Quran 91:1-2)
It all fits very well with the view that a 7th century Arab would have that the sun and moon are about the same size and distance and traverse a similar path across the sky.
Here is an external links that explain these points:
This is one issue. The Quran repeatedly refers to the sky as if its a solid structure or object. It even talks about how Allah “holds up” the sky, the firmament , and prevents it from falling on us.
Do you not see that Allah has subjected to you whatever is on the earth and the ships which run through the sea by His command? And He restrains the sky from falling upon the earth, unless by His permission. Indeed Allah , to the people, is Kind and Merciful.
(Quran 22:65)It is Allah who erected the heavens without pillars that you [can] see; then He established Himself above the Throne and made subject the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. He arranges [each] matter; He details the signs that you may, of the meeting with your Lord, be certain. (Quran 13:2)
And constructed above you seven strong [heavens]
(Quran 78:12)
This picture describes the Babylonian universe. As you can see they also believed in multiple heavens with the water above it..
The same idea existed in the Bible too. There is this idea of a physical firmament.
Then there is the issue of the sun going below the throne of Allah. Prophet Muhammad seemed to have thought that the sun went somewhere when it set, and that somewhere was below the throne of Allah. Yet in reality the sun is actually not setting, but rather the Earth is rotating in a certain way so that it seems to be setting. Apologists of course will try to make sense of this in some way or another, but the most obvious and apparent meaning is that Prophet Muhammad misunderstood how the world worked. In today’s age where we know that the sun sets on our part of the world, but its actually rising on another part, its hard to make sense of this explanation
And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
(Quran 36:38)
This verse was explained by the Prophet:
Abu Dharr reported:
I asked the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) the (implication of the) words of Allah, the Exalted: The sun glides to its appointed resting place. He replied: Its appointed resting place is under the Throne.
(Muslim 1.309)
And in more detail here where the Prophet actually was with Abu Dharr when the sun set, and he explained to him where the sun goes:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) one day said:
Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith. (Muslim 1:306)
Okay, we know that the sun does not actually set. It does not actually go anywhere. It’s staying in the same relative spot while the Earth spins around it. Note: Technically all of us are hurling through space, but this point is irrelevant to our discussion here
Source: Tumblr
What if Allah didn’t want to freak out the people by describing the world in a way they didnt understand? Well he already did that when He told them that they will be raised up after death. When the Prophet claimed he went to Jerusalem in one night. So that obviously cant be the reason.
Maybe Allah didn’t want to correct the scientific misunderstandings of the time?
To me this is one of the biggest issues in the Quran. I cannot see how the creator of the universe would describe the world in such an awkward and incorrect way. He could have said it in a way that was vague enough so that it wouldn’t have upset the people of the time, yet still be true to this day.
Our observations, in this case our reading of biblical and Qur’anic statements about the natural world, look exactly as you would expect them to look if there was no new knowledge being revealed—just what was the human understanding of the day. That is, they look as if there is no God who speaks to humanity through scriptures or other revelations. (quote from Victor Stenger, God the failed hypothesis)
We have to ask, why would God
- Allow information in the book that seems wrong
- Repeatedly describe the world in a way that is accurate to 7th century humans but inaccurate to us
- Allow confusion in a way that those in the future have to reinterpret the words in order to make them make sense
If the punishment is so severe, eternal damnation for eternity, why allow such doubts into His book?
More resources:
- Allah’s Flat Earth (Youtube)
- The Quran – Muhammad’s Flat Earth (Video)
- Creation Myths of the World (AbdullahSameer.com)
- Flat teaching in a perfect book (now offline) – image from here. See PDF version
- Rational Islam – The Universe According to the Quran
HI there you must have had a journey would it be ok if we could have a chat
Ismail if you have a point to respond to, the best way is directly on the blog in the comments section.
Thanks
Peace!
If you base your comparison on science (human science) to learn Quran your a fool!
The Quran is the truth! Quran is the one that will tell you if this is true or not.
Earth is flat!
Not the opposite!
Peace to you!
Is this a joke?
I am confused. I tried to explain this to my friends but I end up making more enemies than friends.
Hhahahahahahahah omg relatable.
“It describes the world in such a way that a 7th century person in Arabia would have described it. It does not describe the world according to the way the Creator of the Universe would have known it.”
Very well put Sameer!!
This same problem exists with the Christian books also. It is a very telling detail. Isa specifically disavows germ theory and bacteria for example. The Quran says the moon split into two. Both say the earth is flat.
These are silly things that people only still believe now because of transmission of faith from one generation to the next, inculcating children before they have developed any reasoning abilities.
Your response can be summarized in two statements:
1- Original Arabic Quran is wider than english translations.
2- Universe is even more complex than what you think.
Not just English translations. Even classical tafaseer show the same problems even with scholars of Arabic. Simply put, we continue to update the translation of the Quran when science tells us its wrong.
But you understand it perfectly I assume?
Mazyar- So Allah expects everyone on this earth to learn classical arabic to be able to understand his message? If he needed us to do this why is there no clear instruction in the quran to do this? Also if he is all powerful i’m sure he could have thought of a more effective way to communicate with us than by expecting evryone in the world to learn classical arabic?
Also even if some of the words in these verses do have slightly different meanings I bet you all my money that at least a few of these verses will still paint the picture of a geocentric universe?
As I tell many people who refer to science and the Quran, it was not revealed as a science book. The Quran was revealed in parts in response to a circumstance. In all my years of studying Islam, I never came across an incident where a group of scientists during the time of the Prophet (s.w.s) asked scientific questions and in response these verses were revealed. That being said, we should not expect detailed scientific theories in the Quran. If you are looking for things like that, then you will most definitely by misguided.
Those things that are related to science that are revealed have another point to them and not to convince people of Islam through science. The Prophet (s.w.s) never did that, and Allah did not try to do that in the Quran. Keeping this in mind, you are not going to get detailed explanations for scientific phenomena, rather at most, just allusions to them. Take for example the favorite of Atheists that the Quran says that the sun and moon rotate around the earth. Where does it say that? Mention of the Sun and Moon describe each as having its own orbit. Now if I believed they both rotate around the earth, I would say both orbit around the earth, and not “each have its own orbit.” There is a difference. The sun has an orbit and the moon has an orbit. The moons orbit is around the earth. The suns own orbit is if you read up on astronomy is around the center of the galaxy. Like this, all the objections written in this post can and has been explained.
If there were scientific discrepancies in the Quran, people would have left the religion in droves. Who wants to be held accountable for their deeds? I would love to be an atheist and live without being accountable to anything or anyone but I can’t. I believe in God, I believe that there will ultimately be justice in the world and I believe that we will all be held accountable for our actions.
Indeed, it was never meant to be a science book, but its troubling how many apparent flaws it has, and how a normal person living today could have written it much better in language that would have been more accurate.
Its not true that people would leave the religion in droves, people are not motivated by such things. Watch this video to understand how the brainwashing starts at a very young age: http://abdullahsameer.com/blog/grooming-minds-video/ and it becomes very hard to overcome this mental conditioning.
Assalamu alaikum. What a wonderful response and explained so well. The ridiculous misinterpretation of the verses is just a desperate attempt to curry favour with Dawkins and co. who are literally hellbent on this science argument to attempt to equate Islam with Greek mythology. Who are these scientists anyway when much of science is still mostly theory.
Im definetly an atheist… and I can assure you that I also believe in justice and accountability… the believe in God is not a pre-requisite for a solid moral and ethical behaviour.
That being said is quite dumb to try to discredit the Quran by nitpicking on his scientific shortcommings… the core of the Reveletion has nothing to do with this sort of factual evidences but rather with the relationship between the believers and God.
I regard the Prophet (s.w.s) and his teachings with the highest respect.
This deserves a meme:
Well I was trying to be respectfull since there are obviously muslim believers in this chat… perhaps I broke some sort of protocol (english aint my first language), my apologies if I did so.
My admiration for Muhammad is mainly as an historical figure… since its impact is huge and mostly positive. So its really a non issue if the Quoran dosent match present day scientific conclusions (which might change in the future btw).
I really find a bit weird the trend of anglosaxon Atheism to act as an «anti-religion» movement that tries to argue with theist on the basis of denitying the sacred books literal interpretation… which makes no sense since 90% of modern day belivers dont maintain such a view of religion.
Funnily enough those athiest (most of them recent converts) follow an inflexible positivistic approach to science… so they are actually more dogmatic in their views than most of present day theist.
Okay I see. If the hadith collections are true, Muhammad allowed a lot of terrible things.
For example see my post on Divorce in Islam
Also see the post on Sex with female captives of war.
Muhammad is not worth respecting. He was a dictator who ordered people to be executed who left the religion.
Please reconsider your respect for this man
For some strange reason I cannot answer Abdullah Sameer post… so I answer my own post.
Considering Muhammad a dictator is completelly ridiculous… yes he was a carismatic leader, and was ruthless with his enemies when it was needed… like many great men in the past.
Yes, Muhammad “ordered people to be executed who left the religion” which is completelly logical in his historical context… religion is the base of the state in orthodox Islam… abandoning Islam (which wasnt usually enforced amongst conquered people by the Orthodox Caliphs, so entering the Islamic community was usually a voluntary issue in the first decades after the Hegira) was therefore a treason to the state… which even nowdays is punished quite severely (including the death penalty) even in the most advanced democratic countries.
I certailnly prefer the clarity of Muhammad and the first muslims to the hypocritical policies of modern day Western Powers, which have declared war illegal (since the creation of the UN in 1945)… but have been for almost 75 years engaged in barbaric wars, coup de etats, and massacres in Asia, Africa or Latin America… the Peace Nobel winners Henry Kissinger and Barack Obama have both of them killed many more men, women and children than Mohammad.
It doesn’t have to be a science book, it just has to not be wrong.
Qasim your comment doesn’t address everything in Abdullah’s post. I would love to see what the muslim response to this will be: How do you explain Muslim 1:306 above? Allah could have revealed the truth to the question before or after muhammad got asked this question: where does the sun go? Allah could have told him to explain to the person that the sun does not go anywhere- it does not “rest” and it does not have a resting place. Allah could have told Muhammad to tell them that the perceived movement of the sun across the sky is due to the earth rotating. If his followere genuinely belived him to be a prophet they would have believed muhammad even tho it would seem starnge to them at the time. Instead, All-loving Allah has not only let his final prophet have a flawed understanding of the earth, sun and moon, he has also let the followers of muhammad have this flawed understanding and has allowed Islamic scholars hundreds of years after Muhammad to ALSO have this flawed understanding. ALL these verses and Hadiths paint the picture of a Geocentric universe, you’re right it does not explicitly say that the universe is geocentric but it strongly implies it and this is a problem because Allah is not communicating effectively and is deceiving people like me who sincerely want to find the truth and who would start praying to him 5 times per day if he had just communicated things a bit better and not imply things that are obviously wrong that were believed to be right at the time of his final prophet. Peace be on everyone 🙂
It makes a lot of sense to me.imagine a person who is very highly educated talks to someone who has never set a foot outside of his district.some who has little understanding of the world around him.the educated person will try his best to explain to the uneducated person in the simplest way in which he would grasp the idea of what he is trying to say.the arabs were a desert people. most stayed in the desert before islam and had a simple understanding of the world.to convey a message to them it had to be done in the simplest way. So i see no flaw in this. But in my opinion its being taken out of context.
With regard to the throne of allah.this is also very simple for me to understand.the simplest way to explain it is, if you see creation as a upside down pyramid, with the tip pointing at the ground.our universe is the part of that tip.as you move up in heavens they are larger and above the seven heavens is the the throne of allah which is larger then all the heavens and all of creation is below that magnificent throne.so yes our sun does rise and set under the throne of allah.whats so hard to understand.
I really dont see any contradiction personally.but i think it depends which view point a person looks at things.athiest folk and many others people dont like to look at things with a open heart.athiest will always ask questions and use sarcasm as a way to make believing in one god silly.without knowledge or understanding this can start to put doubts in a persons mind about believing in one god.
I been through these experiences when athiests used to ask questions which i could not answer.i started getting doubts.but i started learning more deeply about islam even scientifically.
Then i came across a few hadiths.one stated that near the end of time muslims will leave islam in droves as they to islam in droves.the second stated that those who disblieve will not rest until they make you dislieve.another stated that near the end of times people will praise the lier and look down upon the honest.there were quite a few more.humanity which is not even a spec in our solar system forget the galaxy or universe, thinks that it is wise and knowledgeable yet humanity does not even understand its own planet fully.
Whether you believe or not it between you and allah.on the day of judgement all accounts will be settled.but just remember this advice from me.please do not be under the illusion that you have turned your back on the almighty.its the other way around.there must be something wrong within your own heart that allah has turned his back on you.i mean no offence by that but rather stating a fact.
Assalamu alaikum. Another great response. I’m going to save your comment and I appreciate your honesty. The kaafiroon (weirdly my phone keeps capitalising this word, like it was already preset.. hmm), are actually doing us favours. They come out with some weird garbage but it does encourage us to seek the knowledge to quash their diatribe.
I doubt either of my comments will be published but Mr Sameer change your name, since Abdullah means slave of Allah. You are now a slave to your own ego, just because you have failed to interpret verses correctly.
Also as soon as I read that your father was Ismaili, I stopped and I’m sorry, not trying to be disrespectful to him, as he was born in to it. That was enough for me to know why you have deserted your beliefs, as you didn’t have sincere ones to begin with (Aga Khan). What a shame. Let’s hope you wake up. IN SHA’A ALLAH.
well these videos seem quit justified as they have been able to convince you and to some extent and me as well. I don’t know much about the facts and blind follower , i still feel it hard to leave Islam just for few scientific argument. Quran has so many topic like the growth of the child in womb which are proved by the scientific knowledge how do you justify that i man in 7th century know all that ?
and i have very basic question for you , Why you have concluded that you leave Islam you still say that you are still finding about GOD. Do you think you have found enough evidences that compel you to leave a religion that you have been practicing for long. Why don’t rather say that as per my knowledge so far i have found the Quranic verses contradict to scientific knowledge but i am still reading more to know more.
Because I am now completely convinced Islam is made up.
Ali, you mention other topics in Quran such as growth of child in the womb, embryology; how could a man in 7th Century know about this, you say. Well if you had researched this subject you will know that the ancient Greeks already drew up this concept a long time before the Prophets existence. The Quran describes embryology in similar terms as the Greeks did and make the same errors in some of the descriptions. Most of the Quran miracles were plagiarised from other sources pre-Prophet/Islam. Religious people don’t want to look and research the truth they just follow blindly no questions asked.
well quran describe 6 days or u can call it ayam which can mean 6 period or 24 hours now Abdullah samer would say see quran is wrong! it is obviously perception from people at the time, it seems quran just plagiarized some from genesis it is flawed it is from 7 center
not only did quran said 6 days but even the age of earth is described as 2 days another error in Abdullah samer is mind!!(shit people are deluded)
Universe is ofcourse 13,8 billion years!! scientifical error in quran it cant come from divine !!(reaction from Abdullah samer)
lets go back to mathmatic
13,8/6 equal 2,3 billion years (nothing interesting)
since God says in quran earth is created of 2 days.
2 x 2,3 billion years equal 4,6 billion years
BAAM the age of earth is described in the quran!!
well people like Abdullah would never see such miracles because he don’t give it a chance!!!
check mahmatical miracles in quran if you doubt
This is called the Texas shooter Fallacy. Go look it up.
http://www.aqidah.com/creed/assets/docs/big-bang-cosmology-quran.pdf
Everything in the Quran shows that Muhammad had no idea what he was talking about when it comes to cosmology. 7 heavens? Say what? The heavens being held up without any pillars? (Who needs pillars anyway). The sky not having any faults in it?
why Muhammad must have ideas to cosmology?? He did’nt wrote the Quran and was not astronomist! 7heavens will be discovered in the future when maybe your grandgrand..son will be sorried for your foolish mind.
Sameer’s ignorance is what Arabs describe call ‘Jahl Murakkab’.That is compound ignorance.If you know the Arabic language with any debt you would not come up with this ridiculous interpretations reading.How come you could not even understand something as basic as ‘kullun fee falaqin yasbahoon!” meaning “each of the Sun and Moon floats in an orbit of its own …”.How did you manage to be so grossly ignorant of Islam for 15 years of your adult life while claiming to be preaching and teaching Islam?It is not that you might not have been preaching it as per your claim but how pathetic and sorry that is that you were attempting to thrive on such a crass level of ignorance.
You do not even understand that Arabs use the word “buniya” ie “construct” even when dealing with other than “material construction”!You perfectly swallow the objections of other blind atheistic materialists to the Qur’anic verses and narrations and stubbornly insist on your “misreadings” to justify your straying from the right path-Al Islaam.What a tragedy!?!
A seasoned French scientist and surgeon investigated and studied those same verses and many more after leaning Arabic language in his fifties as many other scientists have also done only to affirm Islam.That was Dr Marurice Bucaile. What is your background and who are you compared to many eminent scientists and well known intellectuals who have come to Faith after studying this subjects of Qur’aan and science for any serious researcher to even give you an ear?What are your intellectual and Islamic credentials?O sorry,you have blog abdullahsameer.com and that qualifies you to have an opinion in this internet age of ‘ruwaybidah’ talking as predicted by Allaah’s Messenger-sallallaahu ‘alayhi wasallam.You are a fulfilment of that prophesy too.Subhaanallaah!
You said “Islam is made up”?You mean the prophet lied?Deceived?That he is an impostor?Sameer,why are you doing this to yourself?Are you this ignorant?This is incredible.A collection of all the data-person of the prophet,his life and message-simply say otherwise.Period.I leave our objective readers with the opinion of a non-Muslim scholar critic of Islam:
W. Montgomery, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52:
“His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.”
Baucaille’s methods have no basis in interpreting the Qur’an and Sunnah.
http://www.aqidah.com/creed/assets/docs/big-bang-cosmology-quran.pdf
Sorry for my many typo-erros due to haste.I correct the first set here “Sameer’s ignorance is what Arabs describe as or call ‘Jahl Murakkab’.That is compound ignorance.If you know the Arabic language with any depth you would not come up with this ridiculous interpretations and reading”.
Brother Truthseeker, you, like most practicing Muslims who ‘contribute’ to this site always seem to insult, belittle and attack Brother Sameer and others, like myself, whom share the view that Religion is man-made. This appears to be a common pattern amongst Religious people, to be nasty and insulting to anyone whom forms an independent thought or interpretation of what Religion presents. Sameer has not attacked you he has chosen to interpret what the Quran says and he is voicing his opinion on his blog for likeminded individuals which, he has a right to do. Likewise you have a right to interpret the text in another way and your description of the sun and moon having its own orbit as an example is entirely valid for anyone wishing to view it that way and you can refer to scientists to support your views if you like too. However you can make the same points without belittling someone else in the process. Your approach only makes a reader want to prove you wrong rather than listen to what you have to say with an open mind. As an analogy its much like raising children, when you see your child doing wrong or acting inappropriately (whatever your interpretation of the same may be) the general consensus is you have to approach them calmly, with kindness and love to help them understand the errors of their way and then they may listen with an open heart and mind. If you belittle, insult and bully them to live their life the way you want them too then there is a high probability of them becoming more rebellious and they will not want to listen even if they think you have some valid points!
With regards to ‘seasoned scientists’ presumably you mean also those scientists whom were part of the ‘Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah’ organised by Abdul Majeed al-Zindani and funded by the Saudi government. All such scientists that had all expenses paid for them and their wives in respect of travel, accommodation, entertainment and gifts while in the UAE to ‘support’ their cause of proving scientific miracles in the Quran. Dr Maurice Bucaillie was hardly a world famous doctor however having been the personal physician for the Saudi King the early 70’s he soon found how happy he made the Arabs by praising their Religion and culture and so in the late 70’s having been financially patronized and promised to have his findings (in the form of a book which he would not have to fund) to be used in all schools, colleges and universities not only in UAE but many other Countries, he was on the verge of being world renowned and respected throughout the entire Muslim world and known generally in the entire world amongst the science and Religious community whether they agreed with him or not. Oh and not to mention he would be well paid with the immense sale of his book. I personally find it strange (so do many others) that he confirms science in the Quran and that the Quran is of divine origin yet he did not convert to Islam and/or practice the 5 pillars of Islam – when asked the question direct ‘are you a Muslim’ he skirts around it and waffles on but does not answer the question. Off the back of Bucailles findings Zindani then gets the idea to commission further western scientists for additional support. Such as Dr Keith Moore (embryologist) who appears to confirm the Quran gets embryology spot on and Zindani used Dr Moore’s already published work with the agreement for Zindani to ‘co-author’ the book (no doubt Dr Moore was handsomely paid for the privilege) and simply add his own critique on scientific miracles in the Quran for an ‘Islamic version’ of Dr Moores pre-existing book. Dr Moore in 2002 was apparently too busy to be interviewed by the wall street journal on his work on Islam and claim “it’s been 10 or 11 years since I was involved with the Quran”. So clearly he did not convert to Islam or practice the 5 pillars of Islam especially if he hadn’t been ‘involved’ with the Quran since 1992 which again is odd if he believes Allah is the author of the Quran.
Let’s not forget Zindani’s links to Osama Bin-laden and other links to extremism. Oh and he also told the UN that he found a herbal cure for AIDS and that he completely eradicated the virus from 20 blood samples. A top UN scientist Dr. Jamil al-Mughales, the head of the Clinical Immunology Services of King Abdulaziz University, has disputed al-Zindani’s results, saying he personally inspected the said blood tests, and contradicting al-Zindani’s claims. Al-Mughales said that if he were the Minister of Health, he would put al-Zindani in jail. “I hope that the mass media does not give him more press, because I think he has some hidden motives, because he is on the list of the terrorist lists,” he said.
What about those scientists that do not support science in the Quran such as Tom Armstrong (NASA scientist), William Hay (marine scientist), Allison Palmer (geologist), and Alfred Kroner (one of the world’s most famous geologists) where they explain that they were tricked, misquoted, and misrepresented by Zindani and the conference organisers and that they do not believe the Qur’an to be scientifically accurate or of divine origin. Gerald Goeringer (embryologist), says he urged the commission to try some verification, hire an independent scholar to see whether the Quran’s statements could have been taken from Aristotle, the Greek philosopher-scientist who preceded the book by nearly 1,000 years. Prof. Goeringer said his request was denied and thereafter he stopped going to the conferences for fear of being associated with fanaticism. “It was mutual manipulation,” he says. “We got to go places we wouldn’t otherwise go to. They wanted to add some respectability to what they were publishing.” At the end of the day for every scientist you believe supports Islam there are many more that do not. The only difference is the non-supporters do not make a big deal about it whereas any slight support is ceased upon by the Muslim world and paraded to the entire world.
So forgive me for not believing Zindani is a trustworthy individual and therefore anything he has been a part of being tainted with fabrication and manipulation for his own political and Religious motives. The motives for the ‘supportive scientists’ seem clear to me i.e. travelling the world all expenses paid for, fortune (paid for books and speaking at conferences), notoriety, respect and a person of significant importance in many places of the world. Now that’s just my view and one shared by many and you can look at it in an entirely different manner however I do feel you should not patronize people whom do not support your view point – I mean why are you questioning Sameer’s credentials and intellect? What gives you the right to question whether he has a right to an opinion? At the end of the day we apostates do not need so called intelligent scientists and/or scholars to confirm if Religion is real, we are entitled to make our own minds up. I have personally read the Quran and Sahih Bukhari and I do not believe the Quran is of a divine origin for a whole list of reasons. Conversely it is you Religious people that need these ‘intelligent’ people to confirm your faith is real and to reaffirm your belief. Our intellect and credentials have nothing to do with our belief our opinion or the ability to voice that opinion.
Also ‘Ruwaybidah’ a prophecy of the Prophet, I don’t think it is, people were speaking out at the time of the Prophet even to his face (albeit he probably killed most of them for doing so) hardly a prophecy when it’s happening in front of you! Yes end of times is here, we have ruwaybidah, people leaving Islam, extremists emulating Muslims causing a divide, famine, poverty, natural disasters, transgender people (when you cannot tell the difference between man or woman) it must all be coming to an end soon. But hang on; haven’t these things always been going on since the time of the prophet??? So end of times has always been here since the creation of the Abrahamic Religions!
Not sure what your point is on W Montgomery, did he convert to Islam (I think he remained a priest till his death)?
Truthseeker, I can’t blame you really for your ‘attack’ style, when I think about it the answer is simply, Muslims believe they are above all other humans and let’s face it, people like you kill people like us, as the Prophet did in his time and as instructed in the scriptures. So I guess in your Religious world view you have every right to insult, belittle, attack us non-Muslims on all fronts, verbally and physically, you are just doing what you are instructed to do in your Religious text so I don’t blame you.
However Religious people can attack us all they want I in return have only every wished for them in return the best of luck in their endeavours in their Faith and I say the same to you Brother.
New Apostate aka secondary account of or boyfriend of sameer?
‘Attack style’ from truthseeker? If that is so, what about you getting angry and demanding who is truthseeker in querying sameer’s credentials.
He didn’t attack at all. Sameer is ridiculous, as are you also. I couldn’t be bothered to read all your mammoth monologue, as it’s too long and I didnt fancy slipping into a coma. It’s the same tedious stuff that atheists regurgitate and is utterly stupid. Trans didnt exist in the time of the Prophet Muhammad SAW. Neither did tall buildings and the speeding up of time. They do now and we are in end times. Muslims don’t kill people for ejecting themselves from Islam, Muslims only have killed in SELF-DEFENCE!!!!
The Banu Qurayza story has been rehashed to fit the lies of you and your ilk. Again self defence when the Muslims were stabbed in the back and under attack in the first place from this treacherous bunch. Many societies in much later times still punish treason by death. The US happily kill simple village people in Afghanistan. Or is it ok for them to murder as they are your fellow disbelievers. Btw ISIS = Israel Secret Infidel Squad. More to do with your than us.
You are not really an apostate as you never believed anything in the first place. Just a fraud. Call that an attack all you want. You child!
Brother,
– Quran is the book of Signs, not Science (Dr. Zakir Naik)
– Even in this 2017, NASA still using simple drawing to explain the theory. If You cant explain it simply, you dont understand it well enough (Einstein). The creator of Quran understand his creature well.
– Accuracy. Can we (2017 people) calculate accurately, how many drops of the amount of water in the oceans?
Machary It is the Muslim world that parades the Quran to be a scientifically accurate book, the Muslim world financially patronized western scientists to prove the science in the Quran accurate, the Muslim world has written hundreds of books about Quran and Science and is even taught academically using such books. However when a non-Muslim questions these scientific miracles all Muslims then flip it the other way and say Quran is not a book of science its just a book of signs. You can’t have it both ways!
As for Dr Zakir sNaik, this man is a pathological liar, if this is the type of man you look up to then it is no wonder you believe everything you read in your Religion. Just to give you one example; Dr Naik states Islam does not condone wife beating and that any reference to the same is to be taken as a ‘symbolic beating’ i.e. you should use a handkerchief or a blade of grass to tap against the skin of your spouse so as to make a point. Now, not only is this the most ridiculous explanation to cover up the truth it is quite simply an outright lie to cover up the truth. Hadith are plentiful that support women being hit and in some instances leaving ‘marks’ (bruising) which, I don’t think you would get from waving a hanky or blade of grass on to someone i.e. Sahih Bukhari (72:715) women left with a green mark after being hit by her husband, Prophet seemingly condoned it. Sahih Muslim (4:2127) The Prophet hit Aisha (according to Aisha herself) in the chest, hard enough it caused her pain (no hanky or grass in sight). Sahih Muslim (9:3506) Prophet sat with his wives surrounding him asking for money, Prophets bother-inlaws step in and slap the wives #93 of them) on the back of the neck, the Prophet laughed it this. Abu Dawud (2141) Prophet gave permission to beat wives. Abu Dawud (2126) I man married who he thought was a virgin but turns out she was pregnant before he consummated the marriage, The Prophet said: She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her (according to the version of al-Hasan). [Flog: beat (someone) with a whip or stick as a punishment].
So Dr Naik being the intelligent man he is clearly is aware of the Hadith however tactically ignores the whole lot and decides to go with a cover-up theory which has no basis in any Hadith or Quran itself. He has simply invented the concept of the ‘symbolic beating’ as opposed to a literal beating. If ‘symbolic’ is what Quran and/or Hadith meant then it would have said so but it doesn’t. If the text says (1) you can beat your wife (2) Prophet himself hit one wife in the chest (2) other men in the company of the Prophet hit women, then I think its pretty clear to glean from this that wife beating in the literal sense is permissible. So Dr Naik is a liar.
No doubt the anti-translation brigade will be out telling me how I’m twisting and distorting the meaning of the Hadith and that the English translation is not the same as Arabic therefore I must have it all wrong. Save your breath I’ve heard that excuse a hundred times before!
Thank you New Apostate.
Machary. also check out a response to Zakir Naik’s claims here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvG-606KqwU&t=310s&index=1&list=PLXhbZCz04aW4mU-RJeFYNJQm51lNVDYbw
Great video link, I can’t believe I hadn’t seen this before, I knew about the lies though but this video puts some of them together very well and shows him for what he is, a pathological liar.
Machary I don’t mean any disrespect to you, I understand Religion may give you peace and sense of purpose in life and by all means you follow it if it make you feel happy (but as long as you are not hurting anyone of course) but just don’t listen to liars, don’t follow people like Zakir Naik. At the end of the day if you believe in your Religion then do so whole heartedly i.e. if Islam allows a man to hit his wife to punish her for a wrong doing then just admit that’s Allah’s will. Or, if someone questions the Prophets marriage to a 6 year old child then simply reply ‘that is what Allah willed and whether anyone believes that’s right or wrong is irrelevant I believe in Islam so I believe the Prophet acted perfectly in his marriage to Aisha’.
I have more respect for people who admit these issues exist and that they support them but I have no respect for people like Naik who lie, twist the truth and even invent information/theories to either change the actual message or make excuses. There are so many liars out there, the most untrustworthy are always Religious people whom convey a false image of Islam and these are the apologists, surely, such people cannot be a true follower of their Religion if they have to lie and invent information to cover up issues that may be seen as distasteful by others to appease them.
To change the fabric of the Quran and Allah’s message is a great sin (according to the Quran) and so Naik and his ilk will most definitely taste the pain of hell fire. Therefore it is as much of a sin for you (practicing Muslims) to follow people like Naik as it is to follow people like Abdullah Sameer or myself (any atheist/apostate)!
People seem to not understand that the creator of a universe, no matter how simple its explanations, would not get errors in its interpretations.
You can explain to a kid on the big bang and latter expansion of a universe and not get the facts completely off.
It is a pity that the Almighty has turned you off the straight path .. You probably doubted much your former faith .. You were left without true guidance ..
When someone hasn’t truly experienced the truth they will not be able to appreciate it. Those weak in faith as recognition of their creator will remain devoid of a connection to HIM no matter what level of work they do to propagate. Your own faults, deficiencies and arrogance have led you to where you are unfortunately. I say this as someone who found the spark of Islam through your site. I came from nothing to Islam, attained my knowledge and associated myself with a shaykh for guidance. This keeps a person in check. The one who has no guide the devils are his guide. He’s is toyed with.
You attain recognition of Allah through knowledge and rectification of the self.
Allah is free from that which You associate with Him. Unfortunately inspite of all your work it could be that your heart was weak and the devil clouded your intellect to corrupt your belief by allowing doubt to enter in the being of Allah himself.
I pray for your guidance as God used you to guide me. امين
If the Qur’an is emphatic about this subject, perhaps the current popularly disseminated conception of the earth is incorrect and the Guidance of God is actually accurate. Just a thought. Perhaps our faith is what is being tested. There are some miraculously revealed items in the Qur’an, not to mention the entire affair, its authenticity and error proof nature, is worthy of more than casually being brushed aside when some ‘scientific’ item seems inconsistent.
Just sayin.
Mr. Sameer, your reasoning is like that of small children who do not understand their parents.
On geocentrism…
http://www.aboutatheism.net/articles/ghyiwfg-planck-satellite-data-and-lawrence-krauss-the-earth-is-at-the-center-of-the-universe.cfm
Dude. That essay is talking about the center of the universe. THERE IS NO CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE, every point is in the center, because the universe is like a sphere. If you travelled forever you would end up where you started.
But clearly the Quran is couched in language stating that the sun and moon go around the Earth. That is what geocentrism is. And that is completely wrong.
It sounds like you have traveled the universe and can describe it in detail.
I’m saying NO ONE has been outside the immediate vicinity of Earth due to the high power radiation belts above the immediate atmosphere and stratosphere. It would require VERY thick LEAD or similar walls to protect those inside to travel outside of those and then fuel and weight and such would not allow it. Science is analytical, my friend. You cannot simply take what NASA says as fact.
I have an example: Look at the explanation of NASA for the coming solar eclipse. Does it make sense that the moon moves twice as fast around earth as the earth spins?? They say the eclipse is caused by the moon passing in front of the sun from west to east… but the moon moves east to west. THINK a little…
Remember this: God explained that He is timeless and above his creation.
He sent down a verse to a messenger about the orbit of the moon and earth.
And the verse fits into the science of the time. The science didn’t get in the way of people believing in God.
So after a thousand or so years, His creation becomes more knowledgeable. Knows that the sun does have an orbit around a whole galaxy. And yet the verse still amazingly fits into the science of this time. And more people became even certain of God.
Remember that god is timeless and above his creations? That’s just more proof that the verse is otherworldly, sent down by an All-Knowing being who could look into all of the possible timelines of humanity.
(For an easy example, see the movie Interstellar, where Matthew McConaughey’s character could look back and manipulate through time by using a 5-dimensional macchine. Now think about a being on his throne that is above all 11 dimensions of this physical universe, and try to think what He could do.)
Atheists say that scientifif evidence and rationality gives a reason to do good. But humans will always find a way to worship something. Heck the current wars of the world are due to atheists who worship power and money and will do whatever crap that triggers dopamine release in their brain.
It only took a more than thousand years of human moral proggress to reach to its current state. But the thing is, atheistic humanism could not help the morally degenerate Quraish 1400 years ago. And yet the Quran did.
Like when the Quraish tribe killed female babies because they will be of no use in battle, and now we see the modern tribe allows abortion for an even lesser reason (oh it’s too expensive to raise a child, or whatever). By only using rationality, human-made morality indeed made some progress, a progress to come closer to a full circle.
Abortion is allowed basically for practical reasons… because if you prohibit abortion you will still have women practicing abortion on similar numbers as if it was legal, but exploited by medical mafias and suffering a high mortality rate… its not a mean of family planning, its a last ditch measure, a lesser evil.
Thats how sensible theist and atheist people see the issue arround the world.
Thank you, Mr. Sameer, for another excellent webpage.
Some of Muhammad’s problems with his “geocentric universe” arise from the fact that HE DID NOT KNOW OUR EARTH IS SPINNING. This is shown in the hadith provided by Mr. Sameer above, in which Muhammad tells Abu Dharr where the sun “goes” when it “sets.” Of course, it does not “go” anywhere — the earth is spinning, but Muhammad and his compatriots did not know that in the 7th century, so Muhammad decided to make up nonsense.
Another hadith also indicating that Muhammad did not know our earth is spinning is this one: Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet [Muhammad] said, “… So, the prophet carried out the expedition and when he reached that town at the time or nearly at the time of the ‘Asr prayer, he said to the sun, ‘O sun! You are under Allah’s Order and I am under Allah’s Order O Allah! Stop it (i.e. the sun) from setting.’ It was stopped till Allah made him victorious.” (Sahih Bukhari, 4:53:353).
Of course, if you wanted to keep the sun visible in the sky, YOU WOULD NOT DIRECT YOUR COMMANDS TO THE SUN, INSTEAD YOU WOULD COMMAND THE EARTH TO SLOW ITS SPINNING. But Muhammad thought that the sun goes around the earth.
Possibly it might be worthwhile for some to visit my own webpage on Muhammad’s ignorance of the earth spinning — http://www.debatingislam.com/spinning_earth_quran_hadiths
dear mr.samear..you are like a little child who asking somthing what he dont know..
are you dont know that when the God wishes so he can indead tell to the sun everything what He wants from the sun..for Him is everything possible..pleese think about it and dont say foolish ideas!!!
Unless I missed something, I do not believe that Mr. Sameer provided in his excellent post above the particular verses in the Quran in which Muhammad’s allah indicates that the earth is flat. They are Quran 20:53 “[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out]…” and Quran 2:22: “[He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out]…”
Of course our Earth is a sphere, and a sphere does not look like a flat bed.
Salam brothers and Sisters,
If I read this blog correctly, is the author finding that the Quran contradicts Modern Science? If yes….may throw in my perspective…the reason why it is so is because you deem Modern Science to be true. The subject of doubt should be on Modern Science. The Quran was revealed 1408 years ago during a time where no modern technology exist. The Heliocentrism started its theories only 474 years ago..
AS a muslim, I deem the Quran to be the most reliable and 100% authentic word of Allah therefore the Quran outweighs any book of modern scientific theologies anytime. The Quran is our manual and blueprint of the Human race and the world we live in and the upmost supersedes all printed knowledge known to date. We are the vicegerent chosen by Allah to govern Earth and its animals and Vegetation.
If Earth is one of Trillions of celestial objects in this so called Universe? then it is most Certain that Allah would have explained it clearly for us to understand as he did when explained the complexity formation of the human embryo. For that Allah clearly described the Formation and the nature of Earth and its Celestial Bodies.
All knows best.
though not my field of expertise yet every thing mentioned above is quite simple and self explanatory but only for those who have removed the contact lenses fixed to them by the parents and society where they grow. To me a lie is less painful than its illogical justification by the apologists.
Lets see some more Qurranic dichotomies exposed here, i know there are many.
Arabic is wider language than english, you must learn Arabic first after this you can able to explain all these facts….!
“He could have said it in a way that was vague enough so that it wouldn’t have upset the people of the time, yet still be true to this day.”
–
Vague!!!! So What’s the point?!!
Humans faith is being tested
What is the point of testing you if I gave you the answers
Why God would create hill if everybody is good and faithful and going to heaven?
Im sorry but, you have really misunderstood everything of the worldview.
7 multi-multiverses
The lowest sky is the sky that contains stars and the 1 st heaven in comparison to the next is like a ring in the desert.
This clearly states micro/macro cosmos
You are showing an nordic/greek astrology paradigm with that perspective when you interpret the quran. And you need to understand Allahs qualities.
May Allah give you deep knowledge and sincerity amin.
Remember the aya about the donkey that carry books
Yes, this is Ruwaybidah (ignorant speaking about deep matters) to its highest degrees
Watch your tongues or study the subject from Quran and sunnah for 15 years maybe then you can speak on the matter.
This is your fragile understanding from maybe studying 3 months
Allah mentions the people that reflect on the creation day and night, thoughts go deep and deeper by time, one aya is like a sky with spheres or a ocean with depths, and how you handle the ayas I see your soul drowning in darkness.
I understand why you left islam, your mind is too narrow to comprehend the greatness of speech from Rasulullah saw. Dumb deaf and blind
Reality why people leave islam is lack of intellect and sincerity.
I can’t stand it when ignorant people talk about ilm/true knowledge,
And they want to pass their understanding as the original narrative while there is 1000 aya and hadith speaking against them.
My suggestion clean your heart from the haram animalistic and try to get as halal as possible then hit the books and pray Allah give you understanding.
If you post this , you should post your “credentials” and how many years you study, how much Quran you memorized. Then you read it over and if looks a bit like your lacking then maybe you should think it over that maybe you’re really not the one to speak on this subject.
In reality you’re spreading dajjala (covering the truth with falsehood) and making a fool out of yourself. I think you lack basic knowledge from the religion, maybe you never had islam (except fitra) maybe you just had culture passed down from your parents which generations comes from colonized, indoctrinated and brainwashed out from islam. I see jahiliyya spreading all over.
We gotta stop this dajjala (covering truth with falsehood)
They are like radio clones triggered by propaganda they get forcefed by the masonic media. It is easier to fool a human than to convince them they’ve been fooled…
Ismaili was his father’s belief which is not Islam anyway!
Are you surgeon? Would anyone give him a scalpel and let him operate on you?
No? Good, then please don’t do the same with the quran, really disrespectful to see a braindead punk interpret Quran and sunnah with high stupidity and then say this is what islam teach.
You are either misinformed or lying regarding the 7 heavens, where you get this from with saturn and mars each being a heaven?
You dont know Muhammad Saw said; whoever makes a lie against me then prepare a seat in hellfire. you guys are becoming a stereotype from the effect of divide and conquer, its like you lost your identity .
The first heaven contain all the stars and planets and so on
The kursi encompass time and space and Allah is nur and the all encompassing (al wasiy)
you should debate a brother with knowledge because I feel like you lost your iman by simple things.
Sheytan has two weapons, doubts and lusts
The believer two weapons are knowledge and ibadah
Clearly you lacked the knowledge and didn’t bother to search for answers (which Allah tell us in the quran) and because you found it easier to roll over like a dog and subcumb to the dunya.
I see through you, you refuse logic and reasoning and insist in denying with weak excuses. You should stop covering up the truth with lies, why don’t you dedicate yourself in your new religion ‘scientism’ and write about that. Because corrupting and distorting islam with your narrow mind won’t really help you that much in your identity crisis. Allah says in surah al kahf, let whomsoever wants to believe , believe, and whosoever want to disbelieve, disbelieve.
Islam teach multiverse, 7 heavens, every heaven compared to the other is like a ring in a desert, we are in the lowest heaven, sama ad dunya, and is this sky all the stars and planets are contained. And Allah expand the sama. And the 7th heaven is encompassed by the kursi, which is like a barrier between Allah and the creation. And the size of all these multiverse infront of Allah is not even worth mentioning.
You need to read more than answering islam, and research and study for real, unless your just a joke, then you should go and do something less irritating.
I look on the net and I find this paganistic nordic world view with one small universe. Everything you show there in your 7 heaven module is covered in the first heaven according to quran and Sunnah.
I hope you correct your mistake and at least can give a more representative image of islamic cosmology, or you just say this is your understanding of islamic cosmology that you researched in X days while you were out clubbing with your kafir friends and made up while you were hung over and puking your guts out.
Brother,can’t you just refute what he said?
The belief in Flat earth was held as true by almost all mufasreen,Every scholar who said he earth is round was influenced by science whether modern or Old,you claim you only believe the Quran yet you favored to listen to science this time because you know earth isn’t flat,i don’t think you’re honest or sincere,you’re doing exactly what you have said about sameer.
As for the Heaven issue,aside from the fact that star are scattered all over the universe is the fact you don’t know what’s heaven (sky) is in Quran
Heaven is supposedly the blue dome or roof above our heads,yeah that’s your heaven and there is 6 like it,and obviously this is wrong,and stars cannot be in this sky,so heaven isn’t “space” as many Muslims have imagined.
“Islamic cosmology” is no different than any other ancient cosmology,it describes exactly like each othe,same exact thing with Judaism and Christianit ,even ancient Arab before and during Mohamed’s time have believed the earth is flat,the Quran itself uses the same phrases they use to describe the universe.
But why would you care? you’re an arrogant with 2 faces,if the earth turns out to be Flat,you will come out of nowhere saying the Quran have said it 1400 years ago,but poor Muslims followed infidel believes.
If anyone who disagrees with sameer here, please get your dudes around the world not to boast about scientific facts of quran.
blablabla..nothing else..
Let not forget that asteroids and comets are Jin’s being thrown about amongst other strange and wonderful ideas presented.
By the way it would be worth asking yourselves questions such as :
Would you been a Muslim had you not been born into the family you are from ?
What validations have you ever ever had apart from just blindly believing what you were told as a kid ?
Is it fear of hell that keep forcing you to believe ?
Is it not at all remotely naive to believe someone you never meet, never had any encounters with, never seen any proof of what is said to be true? Again is it fear that is the motivation for your believe
What if you were born in say for example in an Aethist household where your culture / education all directed you towards Aethism and then how would you ever relate? I mean aren’t you just taking view points from your upbringing and trying to fit everything around this and disregard all else (even if evidence exists to contradict your believes)?
Will highly encourage to question what you believe and not just believe because someone told you so.
You are welcome to stay in your bubble if you like of course and get all angry about these things simply cause they don’t conform to what you were brought up as.